3. The U.S. Constitution is based on God's Model of Polity

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Publius Huldah on November 14, 2009 at 2:47pm

I haven't seen anything where the profoundly Biblical nature of our Constitution is shown. My post above is just a summary of a project I have been workling on for a while. Yes! the pastors could turn this around in no time if they would renounce their unBiblical doctrines, start preaching the Whole Word of God, and repudiate their state-granted corporate charters and the unBiblical 501 (c) (3) tax status of their churches. They need to toss their precious "traditions" and start reading the Bible from cover to cover for a change.

Permalink Reply by Brimstone on November 14, 2009 at 6:09pm

AMEN

Permalink Reply by Lizzie on November 14, 2009 at 6:37pm

My dear Publius,

...AMEN but... I doubt this will happen. My theory is, when gay marriage becomes a 'civil right' everywhere, every REAL church in the phone book will be sued into fiscal oblivion by gay couples looking to punish 'intolerant' churches and christians. When all real church groups are underground affairs with lay pastors, meeting in homes, that will go a long way toward weeding out 'celebrity' pastors. Will probably go a long ways toward weeding out the flocks, too.

I can't say that I'm hoping for this to happen. I'm a bit of a cynic though.

I come here for other people's optimism!

Permalink Reply by Bill Burge on November 17, 2009 at 10:20am

Thank you for enlightening me on this subject. For years I have been bothered by the churches preaching about being saved,but not teaching the word of God and God's laws and the role of God in our lives.

If I understand correctly,the non profit tax excempt status for churches becomes a violation of seperation of church and state by way of the government condoning the practices of churches only if they do not interfere with the corruption of the government and that churches back certain political candidates.
We've seen this recently when a churches non profit tax excempt status has been threatened because of their backing of non approved candidates.

I want read more about this subject.

Bill

Permalink Reply by Publius Huldah on November 17, 2009 at 10:56am

Right on, Friend, That is why this Bible student is "unchurched". I touch on this problem throughout my papers on my blog. Fundamentally, our problem is Biblical Ignorance because of the pastors refusals to preach the whole Word of God. Many pastors also refuse to read my blog because I am a woman!

Re "separation of church and state": Have you read my paper on this? You will be amazed at how the U.S. Supreme Court lied when they banned prayer in the public schools. PH

Permalink Reply by Bill Burge on November 17, 2009 at 9:11pm

I just read your paper about church and state and the supreme court rulings.I've got that page bookmarked so I can read it again.Typical how things are twisted around to appease those against our Constitution and way of life.I'd rather buy them a one way ticket to a country that wouldn't tolerate their complaining.

Have a good one.

Bill

Permalink Reply by Penny Kass on December 5, 2009 at 12:40am

Great work. Thank you for sharing it. It got me to thinking about God's reluctance to have the Israelites move from a system of Judges to a Monarchy. He knew what would happen if too much power was concentrated in a centralized government. and of course, the Israelites, beginning with King Saul proved Him right. I believe that it is this Biblical lesson from which the Founding Fathers drew when they placed most of the governing power in the individual states; and our ever-growing Federal Government is proving their concerns to be well-founded. Another interesting concept has to do with the reason for 13 Colonies: in Hebrew, every number has a meaning and the number 13 is the number of "sufficient/enough." It's why a boy is Bar-Mitzvahed at the age of 13 - he has achieved enough years to enter manhood. This is why we could only become a country after we had 13 states. There a numerous Biblical meanings for some of our American symbols, but I don't remember what they are. I've asked the Rabbi from whom I learned about them to either send me the information or tell me where I can find it. Once I get an answer, I will post it. BTW, the word "meek" in its original Greek form meant "power under control." Yet another instance of selective secular re-defining.

Permalink Reply by Joseph Veca on December 5, 2009 at 7:38am

You know, I have read this and the reply's and all of you have missed one critical point. And it is more than a little obvious and I am surprised that none of you thought about it or have even mentioned it.


IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CHURCH YOU ARE GOING TO LEAVE IT FOR ONE THAT YOU DO LIKE!!!!

I know it is a radical idea

You know it is like complaining about what is on a television station but refusing to change the channel.

In another time this was also known as "Voting with your feet."

If you don't like what your pastor is doing, go to a church with a pastor who does. When the pews are empty, as well as the collection plate, the pastor is going to have to figure out what the hell has gone wrong.

501 (c)(3) tax status is what allows many churches to do good in the world. I am not talking about missionary work, but the building of hospitals (over half the hospitals in the US were built by the Catholics [Franciscans (Franciscan Medical System) or Sisters of Mercy (Catholic Hospitals West)] or the 7th Day Adventists [Adventist Health])and helping the poor not just in the US but around the world.

The problem isn't that churches have 501(c)(3) tax status, it is the abuse by a number of Evangelical ministers of 501(c)(3) tax status to enrich themselves, with many of the worst offenders, in my opinion, being a number of the Televangelists on the Trinity Broadcast Network.

It is my opinion that if the churches didn't have the 501(c)(3) tax exempt status (thus making our donations to the church a tax deduction on our personal income taxes). They would really loose their way, because then they would become another special interest group looking to dodge governmental fecal matter.

As a matter of fact it is 501(c)(3) tax exempt status of churches that helps keep religions involvement in politics at the individual level. Because under the rules of 501(c)(3) they have to remain apolitical.

Permalink Reply by Publius Huldah on December 5, 2009 at 10:19am

That is how the churchmen justify their submission to our militantly anti-Christian federal government? To get money for charities?

Look: The clergy exchanged their right and duty to teach the Whole Word of God for money. They sold it! For example, in times past, American pastors preached "election day sermons" to guide their flocks in voting. Now, they don't because they want to keep their 501 (c) (3) tax exempt status. To keep their 501 (c) (3) status, they have to refrain from speaking out against "public policy" altogether. "Public policy", of course, is the secular laws and court decisions issued by the federal government.

So! This is how Caesar shut up The Word of God in this land. But you say this is a good thing because this is how the churches get money to build hospitals?

The Constitution does not give the federal government authority to restrict the free speech of the clergy!

Permalink Reply by Mollie Baxter on February 4, 2012 at 3:00am

I know this is late. I am starting at the beginning. I became outraged in the late 60's when Madeline O"Hare got prayer removed from our schools. I was a first year teacher. I put up a religious bulletin board anyway and a student threatened me. I replied his holiday was not for the Easter bunny but because Christ had risen. Did he want to come to school on Good Friday? The board stayed up and nothing was said. I did this for several years and although other teachers backed me - none would follow. Then I was warned by the principal and finally threatened with loss of my job. How many good Christians do you think stood up to support me? NOT ONE! And this was in the Bible belt! Four decades later people are still complaining and where has it gotten them? There is even more suppression of religious freedom! After retirement I have spent Obama's reign on political sites. They are all talk and no action. Meanwhile I have become a State Delegate and the only member in my precinct. All I hear is "Give it up. You can't win." They are right. I can't do it by myself. There is surely more than writing, calling our Congressmen, and voting we can do to make an impact. I am out of ideas and very, very tired. And I am speaking of strictly Constitutional ways! I want to prove our Constitution works when the people do!

Permalink Reply by Trumpet Blast on December 22, 2009 at 10:41pm

Amen, Publius! "The Constitution does not give the federal government authority to restrict the free speech of the clergy!" I served as a career pastor for 43 years in seven different churches. Now retired. I understand the IRS ruling concerning 501c (3) churches to prevent the churches, "as a corporate, legal entity" from endorsing and/or campaigning for the election of a particular candidate. For 43 years, I articulated the moral issues in congressional, presidential, state and local races and distributed brochures that showed the candidates positions on these and all issues. I also, speaking as a private citizen, unabashedly endorsed my choice for the various offices, and spoke against policies that fostered immoral conduct, destroyed freedom and diminished personal responsibility, while recognizing and challenging my parishioners to get informed and make a prayerful decision about how to use the power of their vote. My experience with other pastors was that many of them were uninformed and uninterested in being involved in public issues. How sad! How tragic! I also found no conflict between eschatology - I believe in the Second coming and rapture - and requiring/expecting contemporary Christians to "occupy until He comes." that is, we have an obligation to stay connected and involved "in this world" even though we are "not of it." Part of our Christian responsibility is to exercise our God-given freedom to govern our nation! God gave us this nation - "of the people, by the people and for the people." We are the government. They work for us! They are to serve us as we determine they should! I also served for 14 years in inner city Newark, NJ, with minorities dominating my membership. Many had liberated themselves from poverty through the "socio-economic lift of grace." But, many still blindly voted for the party of their past in spite of the issues. We ministered to children in a high rise public housing project federally funded and locally administered. I learned that 85% of the residents were 5 generations living on welfare, subsidized housing and medicaid health care. Talk about slavery! So obviously, the ultimate result of government-run, nanny-state policies, "let us do it for you, you can't do it for yourself," liberal ideology is to lock people into poverty-thinking, poverty-living, dependent on the government hand-out. I guess I'm not a pietist. I do strive for personal purity and seek to motivate my congregants to the same. When Jesus said, "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" that's all the mandate I need as a Christian and as a Pastor to speak out against corruption, constitutional violations, and advocating for behaviors that God condemns ... "to rebuke Caesar when he errs." Another reason for Christians to influence government by every means available - prayer, ballot, educating, protesting, writing, etc. - is so Believers can freely fulfill our calling to preach the gospel to all the world. The apostle Paul used his Roman citizenship wisely to advance the cause of Christ in the Roman world and extricate himself from wrongful imprisonment at the hands of government. We can and MUST do likewise in our pagan, God-rejecting world!

Permalink Reply by Publius Huldah on January 18, 2010 at 6:30pm

Disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God. A year ago, I would have said you wouldn't be marched out in handcuffs, because even our godless & lawless federal government recognized free speech. You would just lose the chains of your church's 501 (c) (3) status. But, with the passage of the "hate crimes bill" (it did pass, didn't it?) , you might be marched out in chains for your "hate speech".

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